Masonic Home Kids Alumni Association

This Blog was initiated by Leo DiBiase who was a guest at the Masonic Home in Utica, New York during the years of 1940 to 1946. Leo is the Historian for the alumni group organized by the former children guests of the Home and called, appropriately, The Masonic Home Kids Alumni Association. It is hoped that this site will be used to share experiences and remembrances and become a place where the children guests of all the Masonic Homes across America may join in this sharing.
posted by leo dibiase at 5:41 PM on Mar 1, 2005

leo dibiase said...
Hi to All,I am fervently hoping that the lack of activity on the Web Log is due to "fear of something new".For those of you for which this suggestion is not true please surf into:http://masonichomekids.blogspot.com/ and share some ideas, memories with some of the other Kids.For those of you that may need some help...Well, here goes:Click on the link above. If your browser does not provide a direct link then "cut and paste" the address into your address pane of your browser and click on GO.On the BLOG site you enter your e-mail address and pick a password. This will allow you to "Log In" and leave a comment, a message of good cheer, a birth announcement, a simple hello or an in-depth analysis of the World economy for others to comment on. Notice for us that are fearful, It is not possible to leave a message anonymously, so the site is simply a bulletin board.How about it? Isn't this a good idea where you can express yourselves as to what you want in the Newsletter? Ideas for the reunions, reconnecting with Kids from the same generation?I found this necessary since all messages were being routed through me and this Blog provides a more direct conduit.Speak up, Log in, Be heard as we need you to be counted among us.Sincerely bro. Leo
8:30 AM
leo dibiase said...
My previous comment is a copy of the e-mail I have sent to all the Wired Kids. Obviously if you are reading the comment in the BLOG you know how to get in. I thought the other comments were need, unedited.bro. Leo
8:34 AM
mhkgww said...
I'm trying to get the hang of this blog thing
5:59 AM
mhkgww said...
Where are the others sharing at this place?mhkgww is "masonic home kid George W. Wilson"
6:15 AM
leo dibiase said...
Thanks George,You will forever be remembered as the first responder! How about telling us how the Masonic Home helped you during and after your residency? You had siblings there as well and it would be wonderful to hear about them. I have some pictures to send to you via e-mail for identification of some other Kids. bro. Leo
4:39 PM
mhkgww said...
here I am again trying to get through every time I try. Not all of my attempts have been successful
8:00 PM
mhkgww said...
perhaps I have it now. here goesI had a sister, Betty (Liz) and two brothers,Dick and Charles (Chick)They were admitted after the death of our father in 1924. I was unable to join them until I was two years old. I came along in March 1925 and left in June 1941 after graduating from H.S. This history makes me arguably a kid with the longest tenure. 16 years and 3 months.Dick died of heart disease in 1984 and Liz died of liver cancer 2000.Chick lives with his wife in Anthony, Florida.I often think about my time at Utica and the camp with all the advantages and good times.I was able to take my daughter and son for the 100th anniversary in 1993 and they were greatly impressed.Looking forward to reading other comments from others of my contemperaries.
8:27 PM
ken pettit said...
My first day at the Home was July 19, 1944 what would have been my mother's 34th birthday. My brothers and I arrived by train from Los Angeles, California. We were perhaps one of the few families that came from of out state. Upon arrival my two older brothers, Chuck and Bob, were dispatched to the Barn. My brother Bim was sent to the Boys Cottage and I went to the nursery. This was the second time in my four years on Earth that my family left. That was a frightening experience. I was told that those were the rules. I spent the next 13 years bending, breaking or ignoring the rules. However that first day proved to be a lasting moving day - for it was the first day with boys and girls that I have loved ever since.
4:18 PM
leo dibiase said...
The spring meeting of the Masonic Home Kids Alumni Association will be held in Utica at the Masonic Home (Masonic Care Facility) on May 28, 2005 at 10:00 am. All Kids are invited as it is an open meeting to discuss organization, reunion plans and any other pertinent questions brought to the attention of the board.
3:19 PM
Joseph f. Pisco said...
Leo,I got the MH Kids blog site address from George Wilson, during a couple of Email exchanges. I tried a week ago, - page "Not available". I was just about to tell George the address must be wrong, when I decided to give it another try.Greetings to all. I'll get back to you all, when I have more to say.In the meatime, I hope Memorial Day weekend was a winner.-Tony
11:59 AM
leo dibiase said...
We can count one more blogger with Joe Pisco on board!The HK Newsletter has been put to bed and will be reproduced and distributed.Gordy Myers is ill and is at the Masonic Care Facility in Utica.NS4152150 Bleeker St.Utica, NY 13501General Commentand question.Why is it so difficult to get Masonic Home Kids to open up? (few exceptions). Do they feel stigmatized by their Home experience? Do they not see the experience as beneficial? There are at least 6 Kids that refuse to communicate in any way. What was it about their experience that they are angry about? I would like to get some commentary on this and also opinions on the usefullness of a survey using McKenzie's (survey) as seen in his book ; "Rethinking Orphanages in the 20th Century".bro. Leo
12:53 PM
leo dibiase said...
I am correcting a typo in my last comment.The title of the book that has a useful and interesting survey is "Rethinking Orphanages in the 21th Century". Richard B. McKensie, Sage Publications, ISBN 0-7619-1443-9. The statistics are not rigorous and the sample small but anything that gets people talking is useful. I am not in anyway endorsing Dr. McKensie's conclusions, (if anybody cares) as I think he got too facinated with Newt Gingrich and his vision of "Boys Town" as a happy place, and a paradigm to follow in the 21st Century. When I spoke with him on the phone (prior to buying his book) I questioned him on some details of his experiences and he said, "Buy the book."
7:27 PM
leo dibiase said...
OOPS McKenZie
7:28 PM
leo dibiase said...
I am listing a copy of the e-mail I sent out to the Wired Kids for archival purposes and with the hope that some serious thought would be applied to the question....................................To all the Wired Kids,May I draw your attention to an obituary of a Home Kid I recently reread. One of the sentences read as follows;"......... moved as a child to Utica, NY. .....and was educated in local schools and graduated from Proctor High School." Is this a clue to what the answer is to the question I posed on stigma? I would appreciate some thoughtful responses. Thank you, bro. Leo
7:11 PM
leo dibiase said...
Geri DiNardo. the daughter of Vincent DiNardo responded to my inquiry as follows: (Thank you Gerry for your permission to quote you)" hope that none of you feels a stigma having been raised at the HOME. When I tell people about my dad and his bothers.......well, they tear up and the older ones shake their head in a knowing sort of way and share with me their story as there were other orphanges during that time. When I tell people my age, 61, they say WOW! and ask a lot of questions. After all, my generation did not spend much time in orphanages.....In fact, most have no clue about this phenomenon.You all have become very wonderful people, in spite of a difficult situation. Please be proud of yourselves. I recently took care of a woman who's husband had been put into an orphanage in MA. and when he was old enough they put him to work on a farm in MA. He grew up to be a very difficult man and very hard on his kids..... "Again with Geri's approval, Kids of Kids that may want to chat with Geri may reach her at dinardog@aol.com.bro. Leo[for those of you that may think "bro. Leo" is a conceit, please indulge me as it allows me to sign, " Love, bro. Leo" to differentiate my brotherly love from any other. Also the lower case "b" differentiates me from Catholic priests and members of the Masonic Fraternity but calls attention to my feeling that I am a brother to all the Kids at the Masonic Home, having share similar experiences.Love, bro. Leo
11:43 AM
mhkgww said...
bro. Leo
2:50 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
Let's see if I got it right. I went to the Home March 31, 1933. My introduction was to Helen and Ida Armstrong who came to the Hospital as Helen was ill. Went to the Knight Templar building on April 1. But I spent my birthday, April 28th, in the Hospital in quarantine as Helen had Scarlet Fever and a whole bunch of us got it. Miss Ebb was the head nurse and boy did she give us the devil for all the water we poured down each others backs when we started to feel better. Bu the way: When I tried to get a reunion of the Florida kids going down here, I talked to Chick Wilson by phone. Only 2 people replied to the reunion so it never materialized. Looking forward to seeing all of you at the 2006 reunion.
3:09 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
I arrived at the Home on March 31,1933. Met Helen and Ida Armstrong when they came to the Hospital as Helen was sick. I went to the Knight Templar Building on April 1st. But i spent my birthday April 28th in the Hospital in quarantine as Helen had Scarlet Fever and a bunch of us got it. As Leo says. Including my birth Sister I have always felt that I had 964 Brothers and Sisters.
3:13 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
Sorry for the double entry. Wasn't sure I had it right. Thanks Leo for the way to do this. If your instructions worked for me, they will work for anyone.
3:16 PM
Mary Searing Barnard said...
Hi: This is Mary Searing Barnard. Was in the Home from 1942-1950. Love to hear from you. Mary
4:46 PM
Mary Searing Barnard said...
Hi All:Just figured out to send these messages. Thanks to MUCH help from friend Leo. Thanks Leo. I'll tell you, since you have come aboard with the Masonic Home Kids reunion a lot you have done a lot of nice things for us. Jim and I will be leaving this coming Wednesday for Sag Harbor New York. We have a little summer cottage we bought many years ago(when the prices were less than a car is today) We are on Noyac Bay and enjoy the sunrises and sunsets from the deck out front. We will be with Debbie for Father's day and than she and her friend will come help us open up. As we get older it seems to take more people to do the jobs just Jim and I have done for years. I'm looking forward to the reunion next year. Lord Willing as they say. Hang in There,Fondly, Mary
5:00 PM
mhkgww said...
bro. LeoIt seems as though you have energized this blogging. congratsto Geri DiNardo--Thanks for sharing what you heard from your dad. I believe my sister Liz and Carlo had a special relationship.Hello to Ruth Mosier. Are you in Florida as am I. Plantation, west of Ft. Lauderdale.George Wilson
4:21 AM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
YUP George I'm in Florida. Live in Haines City. Been in Florida for 24 years. Like Mary said: Leo has done a lot for the kids reunion-found a lot of the lost kids. There are so many still lost though. Has anyone heard from Carl Fenner or his sister Doris?Ruth
7:58 AM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
No offense to anyone but I was brought up at the Masonic Home not in an orphanage. As for a stigma-So many doors opened for me because I was never shy about bragging that I was brought up in the M.H. I was at a reception in Orlando Fl. for an officer of the White Shrine of Jerusalem and when I mentioned that I was a M.H.Kid one of the gentlemen at the table asked me if I knew Frank DiNardo. I told him yes and his brothers Carlos and Vinnie. He then told me that he belonged to Franks lodge and that Frank had been Master of his lodge and was one of the nicest men he knew.I would never have been able to join the White Shrine if I hadn't had proof that I was a "Home Kid" as I did not have enough information regarding my Fathers affiliation with the Masons. I even got to go to the International Session at Little Rock, Ak. as I had gone thru the chairs. There I did something that no other than an Grand High Priestess had ever done. Because the G.H.Priestess had a special meeting to go to I GOT TO CLOSE THE SESSION WITH THE PRAYER AND CLOING OF THE BIBLE. That was an honor that I will never forget. And all because I was brought up at the M.H.
4:56 PM
MarySearingBarnard said...
Hi All: Not many of us on yet. I sure hope more join us soon. Meanwhile we have it all to ourselves. I think some just don't know how to get on with out some help. I know I needed the help. Got it to, thanks to you Leo. You know, when you speak of being ashamed of being in the Home. I really was never that, but I did find that when I did mention it most people did not know how to handle the news and sort of dropped the subject. Had one funny experience though. Jim and I had gone to a ski lodge with some people for "work week" They put the woman up in the loft and men below. We woman got to talking in the dark and I mentioned I'd been raised in the Home. Went on to tell of being in the band and the chorus and having the pool and the camp. There was silence and than a voice said, Little Orphan Annie you weren't. We all laughed. By the time I left the home I really was not eager to leave. I had made it home I guess. In the earlier years there I suffered. Missed a place to call home. Missed my Grandmother. (My Mother and Grandfather had passed on the year before we came up to the Home) I was sick a lot and in the Hospital on the grounds often. But one day the Doctors daughter came into my room and said. Wouldn't you really like to be outside enjoying yourself? I got to thinking about it and after that I was outside more. I took up horseback riding when I was seventeen. I'd take the bus to the stables. Loved it. I'd just bought a second hand riding habit when I left. But once out of the Home it was real life and work, etc. I'll write more from time to time on my experiences at the Home. Hang in there, Mary
3:51 PM
Anonymous said...
Hi All: Not many of us on yet. I sure hope more join us soon. Meanwhile we have it all to ourselves. I think some just don't know how to get on with out some help. I know I needed the help. Got it to, thanks to you Leo. You know, when you speak of being ashamed of being in the Home. I really was never that, but I did find that when I did mention it most people did not know how to handle the news and sort of dropped the subject. Had one funny experience though. Jim and I had gone to a ski lodge with some people for "work week" They put the woman up in the loft and men below. We woman got to talking in the dark and I mentioned I'd been raised in the Home. Went on to tell of being in the band and the chorus and having the pool and the camp. There was silence and than a voice said, Little Orphan Annie you weren't. We all laughed. By the time I left the home I really was not eager to leave. I had made it home I guess. In the earlier years there I suffered. Missed a place to call home. Missed my Grandmother. (My Mother and Grandfather had passed on the year before we came up to the Home) I was sick a lot and in the Hospital on the grounds often. But one day the Doctors daughter came into my room and said. Wouldn't you really like to be outs
3:58 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
I go to yard sales here a lot and at one my Daughter and I were talking to a couple and I mentioned the Home and they both looked so suprised and said that they go to the Home for the St. Johns Day doings every June and make the funnel cakes. So if any one goes to the St. Johns Day doings- have a funnel cake for me and tell them I sent you. LOL
7:32 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
bro. Leo did a great job getting blog started. Now I hope everyone will talk to us.I just stuck it in my favorites and then right click blog then open. Goes right to it. Believe me I need the easiest way to get anything done on the computer.
9:36 AM
mhkgww said...
I'm curiousWhen did Wiley Hall stop admitting kids and when did the masons stop admitting kids altoghter?Also were there facilities for girls and boys after Wiley Hall became a home for the old folks?
2:34 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
If my memory serves me right it was in the early 1970's that the last kid was at the Home. And if what I was told is correct, that one kid that was left went to a former Home Kids home for the duration of her schooling. I may very well be wrong.
3:39 PM
Ruth Mosier Williams said...
No one using the blog? How come!!!!Iris Eisenbarth Powell Edwards sent me a card saying it was winter over there but it is like spring. she sent me a little beaded Angel she had made. It is so cute. Hope she brings them to the reunion.Some one talk here. I'M SO LONELY TALKING TO MY SELF.
1:09 PM
leo dibiase said...
POV: Vocational education: The need continuesBy Michael Viana May 12, 2005Mike gave his permission to publish this in the BLOG, send him words of encouragement. bro. Leo
Let me begin by explaining why I became a guidance counselor. My father died when I was young so I went to live in the Masonic Home in Utica. My school grades were average. When it came time to discuss college plans, my counselor said that he did not expect much from me but that I should try college first because I had financial backing from the Masons. I was sure I could learn to counsel better than him and I have my master's degree and experience to prove it. As I write this, I have just completed 30 years working with vocational students at the Herkimer BOCES. I can honestly say I still like children and love the part of my job that allows me to help them to succeed in meeting their career and personal goals. I don't have any magic, but I have enough experience to help kids see alternatives that are not clear to them. It is because of the children that I am here; not the pay, the recognition or the benefits. Kids know that I will give them lunch money if they really need it or listen when they have a problem. Over the years, our school has had between 500 and 700 students enrolled annually in an average of 22 programs. We have had from 150 to 250 students complete a two-year program each year. Programs have been dropped, new ones added and standards have risen to meet increasing graduation requirements. At BOCES, we have integrated academic credits to help students meet their graduation standards. We now offer credit for English, science and math. A survey that I sent out to our 12 district guidance counselors indicates a trend in some districts toward an increase in the pursuit of General Education Diplomas. Vocational enrollments have also been higher the last three years, with the most popular courses having waiting lists to get in. The survey also indicated that more students in some districts are staying in school, getting Regents diplomas as schools strive to meet their increasing needs. There may be a need for more alternative education in the future, especially at the middle-school level. Around Herkimer County —- one of the state's smallest -— more than 100 students have been identified as needing additional help prior to getting into ninth grade. I would suggest that the implementation of the new standards beginning in 1996 has created a renewed value in achieving a Regents diploma. Still, I see a rise of more than 10 percent around the state in the pursuit of GEDs. With the challenge of passing Regents Exams, students must have a solid academic foundation. I will continue to motivate students and provide opportunities to earn as many credits as possible. Working together with our schools, we will get our students through. However, success for some must be measured in ways other than passing five Regents Exams. With many students still choosing to go to the GED route, a vocational element is necessary to guarantee future employment. The more practical measure of success is for vocational students to secure employment related to their training. The needs of students must be addressed, and our future will include new programs that can meet our community's needs while providing the latest training for vocational students. For example, recently at Herkimer we started a general automotive service program and we are planning a patient services branch of health occupations. As for me, do I expect anything in return? Not any more. I realize now that it is not about me, it is about the students; they are the reason I am here. Michael Viana is a guidance counselor at Herkimer BOCES.DROP US A LINE! Mail:Letters to the Editor. New York Teacher. 800 Troy-Schenectady Road, Latham, NY 12110-2455Fax:(518) 213-6415E-Mail: nyteach@nysutmail.org--------------------------------------------------------------------------------NYSUT.org. Copyright New York State United Teachers. 800 Troy-Schenectady Road, Latham, New York, 12110-2455. 518.213.6000. http://www.nysut.org.
5:49 PM
leo dibiase said...
This is an excerpt from Richard McKenzie's work that I thought would be iteresting to the Home KidsPast assessments of institutional care for children have been far too harsh. The general conclusion drawn from the first and only large scale survey of orphanage alumni (involving 1,600 respondents from nine orphanages in the South and Midwest) stands in sharp contrast to conventional wisdom on orphanage life: As a group, the alumni have outpaced their counterparts in the general population by significant margins on practically all measures, not the least of which are education, income, and attitude toward life. The survey respondents seem to be saying that their orphanage experience gave them the connectedness, continuity, dignity, and opportunity that constituted a "good start" and served them well later in life. The orphanage alumni, who are now 48 and older, have a 17 percent higher high school graduation rate than their counterparts in the general population and a 39 percent higher college graduation rate. They also have significantly more professional and master's degrees and more doctorates. The median household incomes of the orphanage alumni were one-tenth to three-fifths higher (depending on age group) than the medians for their counterparts in the general population. Moreover, the orphans' rates of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, and dependence on public assistance were minor fractions of the rates for white Americans. Many children will never prosper in an institutional setting. Still, experience has shown that many children can do well in such a setting, and they can surely do better than they might do in a sequence of temporary placements. Private homes for children can provide a form of long-term, permanent care, from which a sense of security can develop. And they can provide much more: improved educational opportunity, a work ethic, religious and moral nurturing, camaraderie, and a sense of community -- attributes that successful alumni of private homes say were important in their childhoods.Richard B. McKenzie is the Walter B. Gerken Professor of Enterprise and Society at the Graduate School of Management at the University of California-Irvine. He is also the author of The Home: A Memoir of Growing Up in an Orphanage (BasicBooks, 1996).
6:26 PM
mhkgww said...
Hey Bros. & SistersI'm so happy to be on line again after eight days without power here in south Florida.We had no critical damage, just stripped foliage and downed trees. Our son and family invited us to spend four of those days with them in Jacksonville.It'll be great taking hot showers and not wondering how to come with innovative meals.
11:47 AM
kennethpettit said...
Hola,Remembering Christmas at the Home is becoming fuzzier than the winter snow storms. Of course, we children became primed for the holiday with the first snowfall. Sometimes the flakes would filter through the grey skies in late October or early November. All the more reason for holiday anxiety. We practiced our Christams hymns every Thursday night, with a "dress rehersal" on Saturday morning (ugh!) Doc Cavallo made sure you were in tune. Likewise, Linc Halroyd prompted us with repetitive C scales, FACE and EBDG scales. My memory hasn't completely turned to oatmeal. The trees were hauled down from the camp and left outside Wiley Hall for eventual decoration. This event didn't occur until the command/approval/consent was uttered by the matron/patron. Tree decoration at Wiley Hall was life imitating art. Bulbs were haphazardly hung, (I remember one that weighed about five pounds!) Tinsel was flung that, when landed, looked like gobs of twisted tin spaghetti. The science-minded boys would shuffle their feet on the carpet and lightly touch the hanging gobs in order to initiate artificial lightening. This would scare the hell of us little kids to the point where you treated the tree with respect. I don't know who, but some guys would haul up a 4'10'' plaster Santa from the basement to act as sentry for the abstract tree. In the middle of the night green boxes were brought to the tree (I assume by the Santa non-believers.) The next morning the boxes were thrust opened where candy, a toy, Tee shirts, khaki pants, bvd's and black socks were neatly tucked and folded.This largess was to last for six months (excepting the candy.) On winter nights those of us who didn't leave the Home to be with relatives would burst out the back door to the expansive backyard and create a large circle by running in the snow buck naked! Not a word was said. It was our greeting of the winter solstice. We did fun things like building snow forts, freezing the tennis court in order to play hockey, drift-jumped, skied on Garage/Cemetery Hills, placed our lips on the window and attempted without success to write our names in the snow (unless your name was Al.) That was Christmas at the Home circa 1953.Ken PettitFeliz Navidad2006
7:23 PM
CS said...
HelloMy grandmother, Ruth Florian, lived at the Masonic Home in the 1930's. I have been reading her correspondence from the time and how the home essentially saved her life. She spent almost all of her adult life in Brazil, but returned to the home in the 1990's. She died there in 1997. I believe she is buried nearby. CS
7:13 AM
leo dibiase said...
Dear cs,Your comments on your grandmother are facinating to me from a historian's point of view. I have some rare photos of Ruth Florian that I would be happy to share. Please contact me at: virgilius.dibiase@verizon.net
4:25 PM
mhkgww said...
MHKGWWi RECENTLY FOUND A GOOGLE MAP THAT SHOWS SATELITE VIEWS. PLUGGING IN WOODGATE AND SCROLLING AROUND I FOUND THE CAMP. AWESOME
8:59 AM
leo dibiase said...
The reunion for the MHKAA will be held at Round Lake, NY on Labor Day weekend, 2006 If you want more information send me an e-mail atvirgilius.dibiase@verizon.net.
5:43 PM
leo dibiase said...
Hi to all,Leo DiBiase has a new E-mail: vldibiase@comcast.net
8:16 AM
Ruth Williams said...
Hi all. Hope the reunion went well and many kids attended. I sure missed being there. Please let me know how it went.Every one take care and keep posing comments. We sure have been lucky this year with the weather. No Hurrocames here. My daughter is doing "ok" after her surgery and the car accident. She still has a lot of pain whenever she tries to do any bending or lifting.
4:32 AM
Richard Larsen said...
Leo, I am not to swift with this internet stuff. Hope I am doing it right.!! Rich
1:25 PM
Richard Larsen said...
Hi to all,I seem to have gotton logged on and now can send a message.It was a a good reunion and I enjoyed seeing my fellow Home Kids.Received pictures from Les Gaul andI am so grateful for his efforts. Each reunion he gives us a collection of memories. He works so hard and I am sure that you to appreciate his work. Thanks to all the officers who worked to get things together. May God keep all of you healthy and safe until our next appointed time.Richard
1:46 PM
mhkgww said...
this site has gone without a new message for more than five monthsIs it that at our age there is so little going on that we have nothing to report? Rereading the previous items there are some of you who have not given your rememberances of your time at the home.I sure did enjoy sharing time with my son and grandson at the reunionSome may recall that the original name of our club was the "Reminiscence Club" how about listing some reminiscences.
2:00 PM
Leo said...
20 September 2007Yesterday we lost one of our sisters. Ruth Mosier Williams died peacefully as her daughter whispered, "Go to camp. all the Kids are there." Ruth was a hard worker and a driving force of the MHKAA. Her Charlotte is a big supporter and we look forward to seeing her at the 2008 reunion.bro. Leo
9:26 AM


The 2008 Reunion this Labor Day weekend will have about 62 guests about half will be former "Kids". Our ranks are thinning and many of the Kids are physically unable to make the journey to Woodgate N.Y. the site of the Masonic Home Camp. However the Kids that do come to the reunions are all "uppers" and share their joy with the other Kids in a very constructive way. It all depends on their individual experiences. Some of the Kids that derived the most advantage from the Home do not share at all and refuse to attend. If they would share their experiences maybe it will be better for them.
V. Leo DiBiase 22 August 2008